Vital Views

Joe Gaccione 0:02
Hello, and welcome to UNLV school nurses podcast. I'm your guest host Joseph Gaccione, communications director for the School of Nursing. Thank you for joining us again as we share stories, insight and health tips from our nursing community. Joining me today from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department is Sergeant Andrew O'Grady, Sergeant O'Grady, thank you so much for joining us today. As a reminder, there are also plenty of resources available on campus for those who have been harmed, or know of someone who has been harmed. Sergeant O'Grady, can you discuss some of the biggest misconceptions about sexual assault cases,

Andrew O'Grady 0:40
some of the biggest misconceptions about sexual assault cases would be who actually commits these offenses and how they are committed. Oftentimes, people think weed in Hollywood doesn't really help us in this, but they think that it's the stranger cases where it's someone unknown, that Yank someone into an alley, and the sexual assault occurs there. And that's not actual reality. In majority of our cases, a lot of our cases are familial cases where they know the person who committed the offense. And so when you look at our statistics last year, I think just shy of 2% were stranger cases, another 90% of cases, the victims knew who the suspect was in that case. And so that is a major misconception amongst sexual assault cases. So that'd be probably our biggest case is that it's not stranger danger. It's usually people that the victim knows or has trust in that that person builds that trust, and then betrays that trust by committing the offense against them.

Joe Gaccione 1:33
Aside from the obvious physical component of sexual assault, is there an online component as well,

Andrew O'Grady 1:38
there is, and you know, with the increased use of apps, and all these different technology aspects that are out there are cases become very difficult. A lot of times, victims meet their suspects online. And a lot of, you know, I work in sexual assault, we deal with children and adult cases. And so in our kid cases, sometimes we find that these suspects are online. And they are out there, looking in these chat groups and looking in like, some of these social media platforms for younger kids, and they meet these victims online or in these social media platforms, build their trust. And then once they have that trust, they meet them and then commit the different sex acts that they're going to do. And so that is a challenge for us. And we live in Las Vegas. So it's a very heavily touristy area. So we have people that are coming and going all the time. And so, you know, I would say that we do have there is that element of people that look online, because they know they're coming into town, and they're looking for people and to meet and then they meet these people and then leave town. And then we're, we're there to kind of come in and investigate that on the back end once. Once we have all that,

Joe Gaccione 2:46
and you bring up a great point about Las Vegas, Las Vegas is unique for a lot of ways. But does that uniqueness also make it challenging to investigate because of the different locales around here?

Andrew O'Grady 2:57
It does. So we have, you know, just a lot of different types of cases that we have. And so you look at sexual assault. And when we train new detectives, or we're looking at sexual assault, some of the most challenging cases that we have to investigate are the alcohol or drug induced cases. And with the strip corridor, or just the amount of tourism that's here, alcohol is involved in a lot of our cases. And so that really, really makes our cases challenging to investigate in the sense that we have to determine what the level of intoxication was, could they have consented? Could they not have consented? And so we have that added element here of you know, we have a lot of people here visiting, they come in town they're drinking and things happen. And then we have to then investigate it after that. And so when you look at sexual assaults, the alcohol and drug ones are some of the most difficult cases to investigate for investigators, just because that adds a whole nother element to the case.

Joe Gaccione 3:53
So many cases go unreported. According to National Statistics, only one in three sexual assaults are reported to law enforcement. Why are those numbers so low?

Andrew O'Grady 4:04
That is it's, you know, what we've seen and what I see with having been an investigator and the unit and coming back as a supervisor now, something that we see a lot and frequently is this the shame that goes behind reporting. And I'm not saying that it's shameful to report being a victim of a sexual assault, but victims often feel when they come forward to us that no one believes them. And we're the only one that is there for them that believes them. And so, I look at, you know, a majority of our cases, like I mentioned earlier, where there a lot of familiar with, they know who the person is, you'll have families that someone committed a sexual offense against someone else, the victim in the house, and for whatever reason, they go against the victim, and they don't believe them. And so I think when you have that element to it, where they feel like it's challenging, no one's gonna believe them. The crime ultimately gets are under reported and people just don't come forward with it. We look at a lot of our cases where we have a delayed report. A lot of times the reason for the delay and reporting the sexual assault was no, they didn't tell someone, that person didn't believe them. And then they go to school or somewhere else for that they tell a mandated reporter, and that mandated reporter then reports it to us. And so that's oftentimes how we do get our cases because some of these kids or adults, when they are sexually assaulted, they end up telling a close friend and the close friend just holds it down. They don't tell anyone they or they'll question and say, we don't really believe you. Like, we don't think it happened that way. And then that victim feels like they can't come forward with it. They no one's going to believe them, because their person they trust and know the most isn't believing them. Why would law enforcement anyone else believe him? And so I think that's a major challenge is getting getting victims to feel like they can come forward to report these crimes to us, that they will be bleached by us. And we're going to take it seriously for them. We have a say a saying in the office. But you know, when kids a kid yells out fire, what's the first thing they someone does an adult does not situation that run away? Yeah, they will they run away? They look for it, like Where's the fire at? We hear you know, of a sexual assault. And someone says, you know, Johnny touched me the first question and ultimately comes down to like, Well, where did he touch you? When do you touch you? How did he touch you? Are you sure that's what happened? Like, he's not that type of guy. Like, we've known him for 15 years. Like he wouldn't do that to you like he didn't do to your sister. Why? You know, and so I feel like, it's just that that mindset of like, we don't necessarily really believe right away. And so that's, I think, a huge reason for the delays.

Joe Gaccione 6:37
And I guess I understand from the perspective that it's such a serious accusation that you want to make sure you get all the facts straight, our claims by children more ignored than claims by adults, or is it about the same

Andrew O'Grady 6:49
amongst like, who they're reporting it to? I would say that it's probably about the same, you know, we have, and there's just a lot of, it's gonna be from my experience in the cases I've seen, but we could be down at a nightclub or day club or somewhere like that. And, you know, they told their friend, this is what happened. And the whole group is like, we don't believe her, she was doing this and this and this. So because she was doing that, she was asking for a type thing. With kids, it's the same type of thing where, you know, one parent feels like they need to protect the other parent, or they're gonna side with that child or side with the other adult versus like leaving the child. So just in my experience, I'd say it's probably the same. Okay, as far as like not believing on both sides.

Joe Gaccione 7:31
Just like with law enforcement, health care providers have to look for those red flags whenever they treat someone. And oftentimes, I think those red flags will enter intertwine between law enforcement and health, what are the red flags that you look for? When you when a case opens?

Andrew O'Grady 7:47
The red flags that to reporting I guess, would be if someone's saying something just reported to us, and then let us run our investigation with it. And as far as our interviews, one of the most critical pieces to our cases is that victim interview, oftentimes, the disclosure is delayed, and we don't have evidence, so we could send them to this to the hospital to have the same exam done. And we're not going to get evidence, because may have happened two or three weeks ago, or it could have happened two years ago. We just had a case recently, where the abuse had occurred for three to four years, it stopped when it was discovered. And then the victim waited two years to report it. And so in that sort of a situation, we don't have any physical evidence, we're not worried about getting them to a medical provider, we just need to get them interviewed. And then, based on our interview, that's when we're looking for different things, the victim is going to tell us and be able to recall from their memory, what happened and how they can walk us through their disclosure of what happened. And so that's what we're more or less looking for in our victim interviews,

Joe Gaccione 8:50
are the nonverbal cues just as important as the verbal cues?

Andrew O'Grady 8:53
Absolutely. So when we do our interviews, you know, we're looking at the totality of everything we're looking at, what is the victim telling us. And I always tell like the newer detectives, when you do a victim interview, it's the equivalent of like, when we're in the academy, and you go through defensive track tactics training, and you're in a fight for a couple of minutes. When you walk out of that victim interview, you feel you should, if you're doing it, right, feel beat up, like you just had, like, if you like you were in a fight because you're having to pay so much attention to every little thing that victims telling you. And then picking up on the little things they're saying, and realizing like they'd said this, but back before they told me this, like I needed to make sure that we clear that up so that it doesn't become an issue later on in court. So it's, it is very, like the victim interviews you're looking at, like, what are they telling me? And then you're looking at the totality of everything. I will caveat it with this. So there's no right way for a victim to act after they've been sexually assaulted. And a lot of times people think well, because they were sexually assaulted, they're gonna cry. They're gonna be hysterical. They're gonna be upset about it. And everyone handles trauma differently. And so I I can tell you cases that I've had where it was a brutal, brutal, brutal rape that occurred, and the victim laughed and interview. And, you know, that may not be my reaction. But that was her way of coping with what happened to her. But we were able to verify everything that she told us was true 100% The case was legit. But that was just her way of coping with it. And so I think it's also understanding and that's something hard for that we have to train our officers to recognizing that just because the victim is acting a certain way doesn't mean that it's made up or that it's that they think they're lying, or whatever it may be, we have to really look at the totality of everything. So the nonverbal, the verbal, what they're telling us everything all together. And then from that, we kind of determined whether or not what we have to go forward with,

Joe Gaccione 10:44
what is the relationship like between law enforcement and healthcare providers like nurses when you're investigating a crime and treating a victim.

Andrew O'Grady 10:51
So we have a very good working relationship with the medical providers here in town, we have Nevada health right is where we take a lot of our child cases. And so we have a close relationship with the nurses that do the exams there. And then UMC we have a close relationship with because most of our victims go down there for our st exams. And so we have a very, very close working relationship with them. Ultimately, in our interviews, like we're going to talk to the nurse after the victim goes into their exam, because the nurse is going to ask what happened and get another story from the victim. And so we're wanting to make sure that everything is staying consistent throughout the case. And so we have a very good working relationship with the nurses as far as proceeding forward with our cases and, and helping us out with getting our victims like the sexual assault exams completed and stuff.

Joe Gaccione 11:41
Do nurses or other health providers, can they assist in getting a victim or a possible victim comfortable enough to share what happened if they might feel intimidated by law enforcement? Like do you rely on that added layer?

Andrew O'Grady 11:54
So we do, to an extent, I'll be honest, most of the time we law enforcement gets to the victim before medical is able to get to him. Generally speaking, there are times though, where the victim goes to an emergency room, and the nurse is there talks to him. And then that nurse will refer them down to UMC to have the same exam done. And so the only thing I would ask is that just the nurse, be that here for him, let them talk, let them be that, let him just disclose what happened to him. And then obviously, within the protocols with the hospital it has, but like if they want to report it, let them reported. Victims here do have different options, though. And that's one thing that we always have to keep in mind is, you know, sometimes the victim doesn't want law enforcement involved. And they want to maybe have the evidence collected. And that's an option that they have. It's called the Jane Doe exam. And so what happens is, is the victim can go down to UMC hospital, they'll have the same kit completed. And then they have a timeframe to determine whether or not they want to go forward with the case. If they want to move forward with it, then they call Jerry down at the hospital. And she will unseal the kit so that it can be sent to law enforcement. And then the victim comes in and files a police report, but at least gives that victim the ability to collect the evidence and then determine how they want to proceed forward with the case. These cases are sensitive in nature in the fact that we don't want to force our victims to do anything, because power was already taken away from them by the sexual assault. And so we don't want to have this power over them to say, No, you're gonna go forward with this, we're gonna force you to give a statement, we're gonna force you to go to court and go through this, you know, legal process, we don't want that. And so we want to make sure that they understand that they're in control of how they want their case to go. And so, as nurses, they may come in contact with the victim. And they may say, I don't want to have anything done with it. We just ask like, Hey, if you want to go to the hospital, you can have a kit collected at least have the evidence collected, and then you have time to think about it if you want to report it to law enforcement. But once it is reported to law enforcement, the Jane Doe auction option does not exist anymore, because law enforcement is aware of it at that point. So we have to at least take report, we always leave it up to the victim what they want to do. So we do give them that option still, but we'd rather have the victim we just want to encourage victims to go forward and have the same kit done so that we at least have the ability to collect the evidence that we need.

Joe Gaccione 14:13
You bring up another misconception that I wasn't aware of until hearing Metro talked about it recently was that idea of power that it's a crime, not necessarily passion all the time. It's more about power over someone else. Can you talk a little more about that like that feeling that? That motivation?

Andrew O'Grady 14:35
Yeah, so a lot of that is you bring up like it is misconception. A lot of people think sex crimes is very sexual, and it's very sexual gratification that comes from it. And yes, we do have to show in our crime, the element that there they were doing what they did to have a sexual gratification out of it. So but the Senate is coming in the sense that like a lot of this is power over that person to have control over them and And so a lot of our cases, it does involve that, especially our domestic violence cases that we have where it's in the home husband, wife, or husband, husband, wife, wife, whatever the relationship may be. But we do see that a lot where it is more, it's a power versus a sexual, like, I just want to, to get off type thing. They're just looking at having that power over the person. We see a lot in our kid cases to where it's child on child, an older sibling to a younger sibling, within the home, so that that is something that we see quite a bit as a

Joe Gaccione 15:29
community. What are the resources available for victims that we can provide? For those of us that aren't in healthcare or law enforcement? What can we do?

Andrew O'Grady 15:39
So we have a lot of research community resources that are available for us. We have, it's the rape crisis center, and they have a new name, and it's slipping my mind right now, what they're what they have changed it to, I must say it's safe haven, they have a new, it's the what where you crisis is here in town. That's a huge resource. For us. It's a community resource that victims have that they have like peer support groups for victims, they have the assistance to help them go forward with the case when they're ready, the assistance to help them get counseling and services to help them overcome the challenges that after they've been a victim of this crime. And that we as a police department also have victim advocates within our office. And so anytime a victim reports a sexual assault case, one of the first things that one of the first follow up calls is gonna be from our victim advocate, and she works in the office with us, we have a very close working relationship with her, she doesn't come back and tell us what the victims are telling her. But we do have, in a sense, have a close relationship that we can go to her and say, Hey, can you please call them and she's very good about helping them through the like legal process and the criminal justice process. So as a community, I just say that, you know, we have to get better about reporting it, but then also encouraging people to report it, believing it, and then making sure that they we do provide them that support. As far as getting them the counseling and services, they need to overcome the being the victim of a sexual assault,

Joe Gaccione 17:04
are there things that we should be aware of, as far as not to do that could potentially hurt and investigation.

Andrew O'Grady 17:10
There is. So one of the biggest things that people will do, as soon as someone comes to them and says I've just been raved, they want to touch them, they want to hug them, they want to give them blankets, they want to give them water and food and all this stuff. And the thought is very, very great. However, our cases, especially on our stranger cases, are very, a lot of times based on DNA. And so DNA is very sensitive, and that, you know, I can touch the shirt that I'm wearing, you could touch in the same spot, or both could have touched DNA from it. And so the more people that touch that shirt, that's more profiles of DNA that are going to be there, then it's hard for our scientists to be able to go back and look and determine who is actual suspect in that case. So we were always encouraged people to just advise the victim like listen, we know you're hungry, we know you want to get something to drink, the faster we get you to the hospital, and they collect the buccal swabs from your mouth to get the DNA, we can get you something to eat something to drink, and give them that option, then obviously, everyone can make the decision for themselves. They're like, listen, I just need a drink. I don't care. It is what it is for. We're human. But at the end of the day, that is something that we encourage we'd rather people just hold on, let them just give them the resources to the hospital right away and get them into that exam if that's what they want. And then we can get them the food and drinks and all that other stuff later. And then we get a new clothes down there and that kind of stuff to help them get kind of restarted and again

Joe Gaccione 18:38
Sergeant O'Grady, thank you for joining us today. The Care Center at UNLV specializes in caring for those impacted by sexual assault, harassment or domestic violence, but they can also connect victims to more external advocacy groups confidentially if necessary. You can learn more at www.unlv.edu/care Center. Thank you everyone for listening and stay tuned for more episodes. Have a great day.

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